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Yongle Emperor Can someone tell me more about him? Rate Topic: -----

#31 User is offline   vp98

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 09:58 AM

View Postjiangweibaoye, on Sep 27 2005, 10:52 PM, said:

Yongle is one of my favorite emperors. Better than Qian Long. Not as good as Tang TaiZong, & Han Wudi.

His strengths is that he was willing to deal with the Mongol situation head on. The best defense is a good offense. Moving the capital to Beijing was a very offensive decision. I fully support the ZhengHe voyages, however, they should have a private enterprise element to those voyages.

His greatest weakness was his reliance on the eunech (misspelling). His somewhat reckless financial decisions. And I believe Yongle or Hongwu abolished the Prime Minister position which seriously handcapped the Ming for years.


He had no choice. He had to rely on eunuch because of opposition from the mainstream officials as a number of them felt that he was not the proper emperor.

Btw Hongwu abolish the prime minister position.
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#32 User is offline   dragonlord

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 09:05 PM

View Postvp98, on Sep 27 2005, 10:58 PM, said:

He had no choice. He had to rely on eunuch because of opposition from the mainstream officials as a number of them felt that he was not the proper emperor.

Btw Hongwu abolish the prime minister position.


If the Emperor Hong Wu wouldn't abolish the position of Prime Minister, I believe the situation won't be so bad. Then, Emperor Yong Le won't rely on eunuch more. However, I believe Emperor Yong Le would face greater threat from Prime Minister as he was not the proper emperor... :huh:
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#33 User is offline   HaSY

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 04:59 AM

He abolish it to make the power was concentrated in the hands of the emperor......
This is not good if an incompetent emperor was ruling the empire...
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#34 User is offline   dragonlord

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 07:40 PM

View PostHaSY, on Sep 28 2005, 05:59 PM, said:

He abolish it to make the power was concentrated in the hands of the emperor......
This is not good if an incompetent emperor was ruling the empire...


This was true. I wonder during the reign of Emperor Chong Zhen, was there any Prime Minister? In the drama "Perish in the Name of Love", I didn't see any Prime Minister there. :blink:
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#35 User is offline   Emperor_HonG

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 06:07 AM

Anyway , he was the golden ruler of ming .. given his abilities i am sure he don't really have to rely heavily on enunchs
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#36 User is offline   tieu_yeu_nu

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 08:05 AM

is he the king that likes to make wooden things protrayed in some films?
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#37 User is offline   snowybeagle

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 11:37 AM

View Posttieu_yeu_nu, on Oct 6 2005, 09:05 PM, said:

is he the king that likes to make wooden things protrayed in some films?

The Ming emperor who liked carpentry was Zhū YóuJiào, Emperor XīZōng whose reign (1620-1627) was known as TiānQĭ (朱由校 - 熹宗, 天啟/天启). Thought to be a useless illiterate emperor who allowed the notorious eunuch Wèi ZhōngXián (魏忠賢/魏忠贤) to rise in and abuse power, he was the emperor before ChóngZhēn emperor who commited suicide when the rebels led by Li ZiCheng seized Beijing (1644).

The namesake of this thread was Zhū Dì (朱棣), Emperor ChéngZŭ (成祖), less well known as TàiZōng, reign (1402-1424) was known YŏngLè (永樂/永乐). He was the son of the first emperor of the Ming Dynasty. After the dynasty's founding, he was appointed as Prince of Yan (燕王) and based in present-day Beijing (the capital of the Dynasty was initially at Nanjing). A veteran soldier who was assigned to protect against return of the Mongols, he won a power struggle against his nephew, the second emperor of the Dynasty. He also led several expeditions against the Mongols, had the capital of Ming Dynasty moved north to Beijing, commissioned numerous maritime voyages led by the eunuch Zheng Ho (Cheng Ho) and also commissioned a vast encyclopaedic compilation. Quite a capable chap.
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#38 User is offline   dragonlord

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 08:46 PM

View Posttieu_yeu_nu, on Oct 6 2005, 09:05 PM, said:

is he the king that likes to make wooden things protrayed in some films?


I guess you're confused who was who. Carpenter emperor was Emperor TianQi, elder brother of Emperor Chong Zhen. Because Emperor Tian Qi didn't have any sons, so Emperor Chong Zhen ascended the throne... :P
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#39 User is offline   tieu_yeu_nu

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 11:54 PM

okay thanks, so his in viet is called Yen Vuong before he became king right? he lead an army and attack the capital and kick his nephew out right?!

is he a good king? i mean was he good to the people, cos some films i watched protrayed him as a good king while others protrayed him as a power hungry person.
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#40 User is offline   dragonlord

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 01:30 AM

View Posttieu_yeu_nu, on Oct 7 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

okay thanks, so his in viet is called Yen Vuong before he became king right? he lead an army and attack the capital and kick his nephew out right?!

is he a good king? i mean was he good to the people, cos some films i watched protrayed him as a good king while others protrayed him as a power hungry person.


I think you're referring to Emperor Yong Le, the third Ming emperor. He was by far the best and most capable Ming Emperor. The famost Forbidden City at Beijing was established by him... :P
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#41 User is offline   snowybeagle

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 02:04 AM

View Posttieu_yeu_nu, on Oct 7 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

okay thanks, so his in viet is called Yen Vuong before he became king right? he lead an army and attack the capital and kick his nephew out right?!

Well, embarassed to say I don't know what Emperor Cheng Zu is called called in viet, but Yen Vuong sounds close enough to Yan Wang (Prince of Yan).

And it's not as simple as he woke up one day and decided to march to the capital to seize the throne.

There are several angles to the story.

First of all, he was probably the most capable surviving son of the founder of the Ming Dynasty. Among the imperial princes, his fief was the closest to the Mongols who were just driven from central China, and his posting there was to guard against their return.

He was the fourth son, and his eldest brother Zhu Biao was the Crown Prince by reason of primogeniture, but as far as historical accounts show, was not a strong character. Zhu Biao died in AD 1392. As a result, the Zhu Biao's son, Zhu YunWen, grandson of Zhu YuanZhang, became the designated heir and ascended the throne at the age of 22 in AD 1398.

As part of attempts to consolidate the new dynasty and bring about internal stability, Zhu YuanZhang (founding Emperor HongWu) appointed 24 out of his 26 sons as princes over various parts of China. Some of the princes (like Zhu Di) had become entrenched in their power bases when Zhu YunWen ascended the throne as Emperor JianWen. Some of the princes had died and passed on their positions to their respective successors. There was an awareness that these branches of the imperial family might end up rivalling for power with the main imperial line they originally meant to support.

When Zhu Di travelled with military escort from Beijing to Nanjing to pay respects after Zhu YuanZhang died, Zhu YunWen forbade Zhu Di to approach and had him turn back. The pretext was that the military escort was disrespectful to the late Emperor and to the new Emperor. Some suspected the new ruler was actually afraid of his uncle.

In order to consolidate power for the new emperor, advisors to Emperor JianWen (Huang ZiCheng and Qi Tai etc.) guided the emperor to remove a number of enfeoffed Imperial princes. Zhu Di was aware his turn would eventually come and chose to act first. He staged an uprising on the pretext of ridding the emperor of evil ministers (Huang ZiCheng etc.). In some accounts, it was said Zhu Di had been preparing for quite some time to usurp the throne and would have acted regardless of Emperor JianWen's actions.

Initially, Zhu Di was met with a several setbacks. But an advisor suggested that with most of the imperial forces deployed, the capital would be weakly defended. Zhu Di took a great risk to make for the capital, fighting several major battles along the way.

The Imperial Court in Nanjing could not coordinate the imperial forces in time and the capital was indeed poorly defended when Zhu Di's army arrived. A fire broke out in the palace and the Emperor JianWen was supposed to have perished with his wife.

Zhu Di then assumed the Dragon Throne for himself.

View Posttieu_yeu_nu, on Oct 7 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

is he a good king? i mean was he good to the people, cos some films i watched protrayed him as a good king while others protrayed him as a power hungry person.

I guess there's no simple way to evaluate him.

After crowning himself the new ruler, he embarked on a campaign to rid himself of several potential rivals and remnants of Emperor JianWen's cliqué/supporters - mainly by killing them or reducing them to ordinary citizens. He probably considered it necessary to secure the throne for his line and for the stability of the country.

After the civil war, much of the countryside were devastated. Zhu Di implemented numerous programs to resettle the displaced refugees of the civil war and to restore/develop farmlands damaged by the war.

He also repaired and upgraded the Grand Canal to facilitate transport of grains from the south to the north.

How would one decide whether he was a good ruler?
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#42 User is offline   wuTao

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 02:16 AM

I've merged the two discussions on Yongle, one being started by asiaconquerer and the other by dragonlord. Have a nice day. :)
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#43 User is offline   handynas

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 04:14 AM

View Posttieu_yeu_nu, on Oct 7 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

okay thanks, so his in viet is called Yen Vuong before he became king right? he lead an army and attack the capital and kick his nephew out right?!

is he a good king? i mean was he good to the people, cos some films i watched protrayed him as a good king while others protrayed him as a power hungry person.



yong le is not a king, well he used to be a king but that was before he ascended the throne. In chinese context, the emperor is the King of Kings, reminds me of jesus...anyway an emperor is effectively a higher ranking then King, dunno if this is the same concept in the West?
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#44 User is offline   dragonlord

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 04:18 AM

View PostwuTao, on Oct 7 2005, 03:16 PM, said:

I've merged the two discussions on Yongle, one being started by asiaconquerer and the other by dragonlord. Have a nice day. :)


Wow, that's cool indeed. Just like unite one nation by asiaconquerer with another nation of mine. Later ruled by wuTao??? Hahaha... just kidding... :lol:
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#45 User is offline   tieu_yeu_nu

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 05:28 AM

View Postsnowybeagle, on Oct 7 2005, 05:04 PM, said:

How would one decide whether he was a good ruler?


i would say that makes him a good ruler since he did clean up after himself.

View Posthandynas, on Oct 7 2005, 07:14 PM, said:

yong le is not a king, well he used to be a king but that was before he ascended the throne. In chinese context, the emperor is the King of Kings, reminds me of jesus...anyway an emperor is effectively a higher ranking then King, dunno if this is the same concept in the West?


the word Vuong in vietnamese doesn't have to mean king, like the word Vuong Gia means a decendent of the imediate ruling family that has been put into a post in the imperial court. like Da Nhi Gon of the Qing dynasty, he was also refered to as Nhiep Chanh Vuong when he took care of the court affairs during the early years of thuan Tri.
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