[xu huang]

Qi was originally of the Jiang clan (姜氏), which started from Jiang Shang (aka Jiang Taigong). However, during the Warring States Period, the Tian clan (田氏) usurped the throne. The Tian clan's ancestors were actually from a branch of the State of Chen during the Spring and Autumn Period.

Chen Li-gong (陳厲公-Gui Yao 嬀躍 706-700) was murdered by his brother Chen Zhuangong (陳莊公-Gui Lin 嬀林 699-693). Chen Li-gong's son Gui Wan (妫完) did not succeed his father and fled to Qi. It was Qi Huangong 齊桓公 (Jiang Xiaobai 姜小白 685-643)'s 14th year as king. Gui Wan managed to become Qi's 大夫(I don't know what rank is that in English). Gui Wan also changed his surname to Tian.

His descendants later became Qi's major officials and one of them usurped the throne and ended Jiang clan's rule.

This post has been edited by General_Zhaoyun: 04 August 2005 - 07:54 AM

[Yun]

Tian Rangju (Sima Rangju) and Sun Wu (Sunzi) were both descended from Gui Wan 妫完 who fled to Qi and changed his surname to Tian because it was pronounced similarly to 'Chen' at that time (probably something like 'Tan' or 'Ten'). Sun Wu's grandfather Tian Shu 田书, a contemporary of Tian Rangju, was given the surname Sun as a reward by the Duke of Qi for successes in battle.

So three of the great military strategists of the period (Tian Rangju, Sun Wu and Sun Bin) were descendants of the Chen ruling house of Gui 妫, and so were the Tian clan who came to rule the state of Qi.

[norenxaq]

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So three of the great military strategists of the period (Tian Rangju, Sun Wu and Sun Bin) were descendants of the Chen ruling house of Gui ?, and so were the Tian clan who came to rule the state of Qi.

specifically how?

[xu huang]

Yun, on Aug 14 2005, 11:53 PM, said:

Tian Rangju (Sima Rangju) and Sun Wu (Sunzi) were both descended from Gui Wan 妫完 who fled to Qi and changed his surname to Tian because it was pronounced similarly to 'Chen' at that time (probably something like 'Tan' or 'Ten'). Sun Wu's grandfather Tian Shu 田书, a contemporary of Tian Rangju, was given the surname Sun as a reward by the Duke of Qi for successes in battle.

So three of the great military strategists of the period (Tian Rangju, Sun Wu and Sun Bin) were descendants of the Chen ruling house of Gui 妫, and so were the Tian clan who came to rule the state of Qi.

Whoa....I didn't know that the 3 of them were descendants of Chen. I only knew the Tian clan of Qi. So, IF Sun Jian was really a descendant of Sun Wu, that means Wu during the 3 kingdoms period was specifically from the Gui clan, and that means they might be my ancestors.....and to think I used to hate Sun Quan....

This post has been edited by xu huang: 15 August 2005 - 07:34 AM

[Yun]

Quote

specifically how?

Unfortunately we have no extant information on which line of the Tian clan Tian Rangju and Tian Shu were descended from.

Quote

So, IF Sun Jian was really a descendant of Sun Wu, that means Wu during the 3 kingdoms period was specifically from the Gui clan, and that means they might be my ancestors.....and to think I used to hate Sun Quan....

However, Sun Quan's claim of descent from Sun Wu is highly suspect, and even Chen Shou was sceptical about it when writing the Sanguo Zhi. It's much more likely that Sun Jian was of a humble soldiering family.

[xu huang]

Yun, on Aug 15 2005, 08:38 PM, said:

Unfortunately we have no extant information on which line of the Tian clan Tian Rangju and Tian Shu were descended from.
However, Sun Quan's claim of descent from Sun Wu is highly suspect, and even Chen Shou was sceptical about it when writing the Sanguo Zhi. It's much more likely that Sun Jian was of a humble soldiering family.

IMHO, You would be more easily accepted by civillians if you are a descendant from some royal family or some famous people, especially when you are claiming territories during those turbulent times. So maybe that's why Sun Jian claimed that he descended from Sun Tzu, just like Liu Bei claiming that he was from the royal Han family in the novel........which everybody knows that it's not true in history.

BTW, even though his claim is not entirely true, I'm beginning to see Wu in a different light....