[AhMan]

I watched this movie which I still do not know the title and there was mention of Sima Rangju, the teacher of Sunzi. In the movie Ji Guang (better known as Helu), Wu yuan and Sun Wu were students of this man. Wass this true history or made up?
A lot of movies I watched about Wu Chu war Sun Wu and Wu zi xu were depicted as sworn brothers. Is there any historical source that mentions this?

[Yun]

Sima Rangju was the tactician who served the Qi State and wrote the military manual Sima Fa. He and Sun Wu were actually relatives - they were both descended from Chen Wan, who fled from the Chen State to Qi in 672 BC because of civil unrest in Chen. Chen Wan changed his clan name (xing) to Tian when in Qi, and the Tian became a prominent family in the politics of the state. Sima Rangju lived at about the same time as Sun Wu's grandfather Tian Shu - during the reign of Duke Jing of Qi (547-490 BC). Tian Shu was a minister in the Qi court, while Tian Rangju was an impoverished member of a lesser branch of the Tian clan. But both eventually distinguished themselves in battle, with the result that Tian Shu was granted a fief and a new sub-surname (shi) of Sun, while Tia Rangju was made Grand Marshal (Da Sima) of the Qi and thus became known as Sima Rangju. Sun Wu was about 12 years old at the time of the adoption of the Sun sub-surname, but it is not known if he had any contact with Tian/Sima Rangju.

As for the relationship between Sun Wu and Wu Zixu, we only know that it was Wu who strongly recommended Sun to the Wu king Helu. There is no record of anything closer than that.

[Sephodwyrm]

I would not doubt if Wu Zixu and Sun Wu are close friends, but about them with He Lv being students under Sima Rangju is way out of the records.

In any case, Sima Rangju was another military scholar with his core argument on the essence of Zheng Yi, or righteousness. A righteous army will, in the end, prevail. The way to establish a righteous army would be to define the necessity of war as a means to end wars.

[AhMan]

the main theme of Sun wu art of war is Wu De or martial virtue: wage war to avoid war for the people.
In the movie there was the scenario of Sun wu going to Jin. This is made up, right? Dong zhou lie guo only mentioned the part when Sunwu lived in Wu.
His name, Wu was given by his teacher to stress the theme Wu De in their military work.

[Grand Genealogist]

Yun, on May 13 2005, 11:49 AM, said:

Sima Rangju was the tactician who served the Qi State and wrote the military manual Sima Fa. He and Sun Wu were actually relatives - they were both descended from Chen Wan, who fled from the Chen State to Qi in 672 BC because of civil unrest in Chen. Chen Wan changed his clan name (xing) to Tian when in Qi, and the Tian became a prominent family in the politics of the state. Sima Rangju lived at about the same time as Sun Wu's grandfather Tian Shu - during the reign of Duke Jing of Qi (547-490 BC). Tian Shu was a minister in the Qi court, while Tian Rangju was an impoverished member of a lesser branch of the Tian clan. But both eventually distinguished themselves in battle, with the result that Tian Shu was granted a fief and a new sub-surname (shi) of Sun, while Tia Rangju was made Grand Marshal (Da Sima) of the Qi and thus became known as Sima Rangju. Sun Wu was about 12 years old at the time of the adoption of the Sun sub-surname, but it is not known if he had any contact with Tian/Sima Rangju.

Was there a familial relation between Sima Rangju and the Grand Historian? Also, was not the Tian the royal family of Qi?

[Yun]

The Tian eventually became rulers of Qi, but they were not the original ruling house.

As for Sima Qian, no there was no relation. Sima Qian's ancestors had served the state of Qin, not Qi.

[Grand Genealogist]

Yun, on May 27 2005, 03:33 AM, said:

As for Sima Qian, no there was no relation. Sima Qian's ancestors had served the state of Qin, not Qi.

How 'bout related to the Sima of Zhao, who eventually became the Jin dynasty?

[Yun]

Those, they were related to rather distantly, as I mentioned in the thread on Sima Yi's family tree.

[sima old bandit]

Is Sun Tzu's surname also Tian before his family was awarded with the Sun name?

[Yun]

Yes. To trace it even further back, his ancestors (the ruling house of Chen) were originally surnamed Gui 妫. Gui Wan who fled to Qi was also named Chen Wan because it was the custom then for men to take the name of their state as an alternate surname. The surname 'Tian' was also derived from 'Chen'. See this thread: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=5743